We're largely in agreement, Band-Uh! was well-loved and this is gonna be a major blow to the Aggie community. I think this is a very risky decision for admin and one that I personally am sad about from my outside-looking-in perspective.

I'm just saying, like I said in an earlier comment, we don't know if what's been published is the full story. We don't know if there's other issues going through campus disciplinary channels. We don't know if any of the sexual harassment issues alleged like between alumni and band members, have gone or will go to litigation or court. My work experience in this area that leads me to think it's very possible that the university wouldn't necessarily publish all the evidence they have.

Like I said in earlier, UCD could have much more easily kept the Band-Uh! name but still made it campus-run. I honestly do not believe admin is that stupid to scrap it entirely without having some reason to do so that made sense from their perspective. Maybe it's as you say and it was entirely based on a strong reaction to what we already know. But it could very well be more than that.

This is just my two cents. Again, I don't know what's up.

Yes, we probably have a lot of agreement. And the Alumni Band frequently socializing with undergrads does sound a bit bizarre, if true. Was if just a couple of alums?

We know its not the full story, by definition. And there have been blatant agendas published.

Ms. Seijas said her goal was an investigation.

Her friend shared **shocking stories of unkind treatment at parties.**

"My friend came to me with stories of what had happened to her even at these parties," Seijas said. "... Nobody was getting hurt but people are getting hurt. You just have to look closer." "

But she said, "Nobody was getting hurt." I. E., no assualt. They directly contradict themselves.

And let's please not be naive. College campuses, especially liberal college campuses like Davis are anti-male. A friend on campus says "The only people lower than white males are Jewish students." I believe there have been a few male students at Davis railroaded out of school by an allegation of improper behavior without a chance to properly rebut said allegations.

Bob Dunning writes lovingly of Band memories. And then this.

"“Nearly half the band members surveyed said they were concerned about the consumption of drugs or alcohol. ‘So much drinking was involved that people could’ve died,’ one band member wrote.”

"The report gets much more detailed and leaves no doubt that UC Davis’ decision to immediately and permanently disband the band was the appropriate course of action."

"Indeed, the volume of evidence was overwhelming and the law firm’s conclusions compelling, as disheartening as that might be for those of us who loved the band."

"Still, what are we to do with all those memories?"

And here was part of a reply.

Troy Turpen: "Remember them, of course. Yes, good people can do bad things...yet extraordinary people can do extraordinary things, and we did them constantly, consistently, with dignity, bravado and sometimes brashness, but our representation of the campus was genuine, heartfelt and true. We loved who we were and what we represented, and we did so with honor. ***In private, we were college kids...no more, no less. We should have known we were being held to a higher standard even in our private lives, and with better advice (and a modicum of understanding from those who, as full-fledged adults, should have guided better) we probably wouldn't have done half the things we did.*** There's plenty of culpability to go around, and vestiges of a different time should have been excised...now they have simply killed the patient, with no regard towards a true cure. An ignominious end to an otherwise shining organization."

https://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/dunning/bob-dunning-band-uh-was-a-huge-part-of-davis/

The statement by Troy Turpen is very thoughtful and heartfelt...very sad to read...

I was in band with Troy. There is no one who loves the band, and bleeds blue and gold, more than Troy.

Go Ags!

Bob’s article covers the situation very well.

Yes and no. I admit I haven't read the full report.

Much of what he describes as evidence may actually be allegations, exaggeration, and hearsay. No doubt reforms were needed. A young lady, a primary accuser, admitted her agenda and admitted nothing (assaults) happened. Imagine most fraternities closed, and a coach or two removed. Many of these allegations also surround private student behavior.

If these are the new standards, are 80% of fraternities going to be given the death sentence, and half the dorm and bar parties?

Dunning also ignores the previous Davis culture - giving undergraduate students responsibility in leadership positions.

I’ve read the report and I have to disagree with Bob. I get that he has to sell papers in the People’s Republic of Davis, but come on man, read the whole thing not just the slanted executive summary.

1. University sent an email survey over the summer. Predictably, did not have a great response rate. Many of the questions were leading or extremely broad as if they were trying to coax an affirmative response. The most damning questions were actually left blank by a lot of respondents. So in real life it’s not 40%, it’s 40% x 0.5 survey response x 0.5 question response. A small sample size with no controls applied to ensure a representative sample.

2. About 20 people participated in personal interviews. They volunteered on the email survey. So by design not a representative sample. It was people in Davis over the summer and probably especially passionate one way or the other.

3. The report acknowledges that a on significant number of specific instances described, the respondent was not a witness and had only heard about it second hand. A least one incident described occurred more than a decade prior, so was entirely hearsay.

4. The university painted the alumni band in a really negative light. While there was certainly work to be done in this area of helping students and alum understand each other, the question was very vague “have you ever had a negative experience with an alum” - you could substitute professor for alum and probably get a similar response. They did not research whether it was a few or a lot of alumni on a few or a lot of occasions causing this. What we do know is that the specific incidents reported all centered around 2 individuals, who were promptly and permanently removed.

5. No work was done to establish baseline comparisons. Are concerns about alcohol, hazing, time management, sexual harassment higher among band students than the student population in general or other student groups? Maybe this is actually a University or America culture issue.

Nobody is saying work wasn’t needed to keep the student and alumni bands relevant to 2019. Any organization must engage in continuous change and improvement. And in fact some of that change was happening. The student and alumni groups were working with campus recreation and the alumni association to make changes and updates. The vice chancellor pulled the plug before any of those could take effect. The fact of the matter is that the University has been at serious odds with the band since at least 1981 and previous attempts to take it over have failed. The administration isn’t really that concerned about alleged victims, they saw this as their chance to squash the band because in 2019 if you are accused of sexual misconduct, you are guilty until proven innocent and if you try to defend yourself you are branded a rape apologist. Facts be damned.

Over the last 90 years and 1000s of band members, there have certainly been a few bad apples who have victimized others. Statistics wouldn’t allow otherwise. To those individuals, a collective apology for your experience and we as a society must do better. But sadly this wasn’t your day in court and you’ve received no justice. Changing a name or a uniform in a top down action will do little to change things that happen in private homes among adults, which is where all of these allegations center. That needs a bottom up solution, which the University can’t seem to wrap their head around. That, and the fact that the chief complainant has been spotted on campus and social media harassing and doxing band members. Not typical victim behavior and in fact perpetuates the very behavior they/them so loudly protests. Makes me think, at least for that person, this was more about some personal vendetta.

Great write-up. Can you send this in to the Enterprise?

Thank you. I agree with smarterray, analysis like this needs wider distribution. Davis Enterprise or Sacramento Bee op-ed?

These explanations really water down the use of the word "evidence", you'd think a law grad would show more critical thinking.

Are the Band-uh or Band Alumni fighting this? Is there any potential Appeal process?

One minor point. Likely no administrators still around from 1981, and even few from later periods. But what lives on is the stereotype.

Send that analysis to Bob Dunning, at least.

I don't know yet of any specific, targeted fight that's being done, but I think any real response from students, alumni or fans would need to be BIG.

I learned yesterday that the doors to the band room on campus no longer say "Cal Aggie Band" on them. Supposedly the painted letters were removed on Tuesday, the same day the news dropped on us. The university seems to want to push the Band-uh into the past as quickly as possible.

From what I understand, the university presented 2 options, the current option A or option B to permanently disband for at least 4 years and prohibit anyone from the past being involved ever. And the basic overtone is that if anyone gives them much crap on Option A, they’ll just pull the trigger on B. I think there are also people holding their tongue because they don’t necessarily want social justice warriors to publicly paint them as rape apologists. Even if patently false, the accusation may not go over well at work.

So what is the time frame for this new band, or musical ensemble?

So they played Hardball, and not democratic.

Is Ms. Christina Pena the person with the main agenda, who also reportedly is doxxing people, etc.? She referred to herself in one article as a "victim", yet in another said nothing happened (beyond someone allegedly saying her friend "should die"). Her stated goal was an investigation.

For the record, I can understand wanting to end alumni band members partying with undergrads. (Supposedly already curtailed.) I could understand wanting an end to "naked hot tub". Etc. But giving a Death Sentence to the CAMB over the actions of a few, in private homes, on private time, would be like eliminating Aggie basketball over the actions of 1 player.

Question: what would happen if the CAMB showed up on Picnic Day for the Battle of the Bands?

Emma Seijas, a former section leader, recounted her example of 'hazing'.

A band march was conducted for newbies, and at the end their hat was stomped on as a bonding ritual.

https://youtu.be/wvQtHD_kIr8

Reddit user clijster : "...Did I mention that band officers, many of whom attend parties, are mandated reporters of hazing, and take that role seriously? I can state with supreme confidence that the Aggie band in this day and age doesn't haze anyone ever. Anything that could even slightly be construed as hazing would get a dozen people suspended or expelled on the spot, as they should be."

"... to put it a bit bluntly, many of the changes being called for were made decades ago, in an era when hazing was a real problem for the band."

https://www.reddit.com/r/UCDavis/comments/ba0z3t/accusations_of_hazing_assault_general_misconduct/

ewdite: "Lol what is this article? Someone needs to clarify to the author the difference between team building and hazing."

I am not aware of Ms Pena doxxing anyone. I’m referring to someone from the first Aggie article. Was trying to avoid using names.

As far as alumni, the vast majority of us only came around at picnic day and homecoming and mainly interacted with people from our own eras. Occasionally would talk career advice with students interested in my field, which I thought was benign. Apparently there were a few recent grads who were not moving on with life and it was problematic.

As far as hazing, the hat activity was sanctioned by and overseen by university staff as a team building activity. It’s double speak for the university to say this was problematic but their staff did nothing wrong. The bigger problem seems to be perceived/unspoken peer pressure to participate in off-the-clock shenanigans. Like, “will I be uncool if I don’t jump on this hot tub naked?” A name change doesn’t address the root issue here. For the record, this “old tradition” is less than 10 years old and foreign to most of us alums. There is a warped sense of time and tradition in play.

A band will play at the home opener in the stands, no field show. TBD what it will be called. Unknown if any of the music or marching will be retained. They will be fundraising for new uniforms that they delusionally think alumni will fund. Not sure if there will be a Battle of the Bands anymore. If the staff director doesn’t feel like it, it ain’t happening. The alumni band is dissolved as a chapter of the cal Aggie alumni association but may still exist as an independent entity as it predates the alumni association. Unclear what that looks like but probably would not be welcome on campus.

Unclear what that looks like but probably would not be welcome on campus.

Well, you all would be welcome at my tailgate with open arms!

The hat story is now more absurd. For the record, I only mentioned the two young ladies who have apparently been quite vocal, being interviewed by local TV and print outlets.

The new culture of a campus now about or over 60% female?... Female wrestlers sued the university, supportive coaches and administrators.

Fabulous idea. Independent Maverick CAMB plays for alumni, fans, in comfortable garb.

From the stories I've heard, I don't think that departed alum Warren Mooney would agree with Dunning. (Mooney once wrote a big check for new band uni's.)

We do not even need a new band. We can hire this band. You all should watch this youtube video of young Germans who belong to “discipline marching bands” or like “Fanfarenzug Dresden e.V., -2016 Marschwertung Harmont. Some say inspired by GI occupation troops bands after WW2. Look at their band leader- no one messing with her IMHO. Probably very little hazing as well.

I was unaware of that lawsuit.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/settlement-wrestling-coach-lawsuit-725k-former-coach-female-athlete-dispute/

The article is 12 years old: "Women's wrestling is not a sport sanctioned by the NCAA, nor does the NCAA consider it an emerging sport. It is not sponsored by the Pac-10 or Big West Conference, to which UC Davis belongs. Fewer than 10 women ever expressed an interest in wrestling during the years that Burch was head coach."

Women's wrestling is blowing up right now. When Davis cut the wrestling program, my first reaction was why don't they just make the team coed, or create a women's team??? Google Forrest Molinari, a product of East Bay wrestling, headed to the world championships in less than two weeks to represent USA.

The disappointing aspect of taking down the whole band-uh is that all bandsmen are penalized due to the actions (real or perceived) of alleged bad actors, with most of the alleged actions taken place off-campus at parties that are not official band-uh function (at least from what I have seen). As Fugawe09 has said - some of what allegedly happened is not tradition, and I am not defending any of that.

Does anyone really believe that changing the name of the band-uh and wearing new uniforms will change any perceived issues? Will a pear become an apple simply because you call it an apple. Add that to a unscientifically designed evaluation survey with a control or contrast group is pretty embarrassing for a University that supposedly prides itself in academics. Alas it seems to be convenient fodder to supply to sycophants (i.e., California Aggie and Sacramento Bee) to reverse engineer a desired outcome. Mark Twain said “never get in a argument with someone who buys ink by the barrel”.

It will be interesting to see what will transpire during the first home game. I suggest that the section normally occupied by the band-uh, be left empty with a sign proclaiming “This space intentionally left blank – RIP Cal Aggie Band-uh”. There will be no “Aggie Fight” after Aggie TDs, no “hot time” at turnovers - no alma mater to sing – no pregame show. When I was in the band, the band-uh was essentially the entire rooting section at away games – what now? The band-uh was famous for being loyal and spreading Aggie Spirit and Pride. The administration has essentially killed that – throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I guess the goal of the administration is to have a generic, high-school-type band dressed in polyester pajamas march corp-style like 90% of the other bands now.

Every year the week before classes the band-uh would host band retreat, 4 days of welcoming freshmen and teaching them to march. The university has decided there are too many negative connotations to “retreat” so in the ultimate tone-deaf move, they are renaming it “band camp,” because there are no sexualized connotations there... and no, I’m not joking. These people are morons.

I thought the band was suspended?

I've never seen the movie yet I know exactly how the university has shot itself in the foot here. Hang on, I'll look it up...

...ah yes, here it is. (Warning: not exactly a family-friendly link.)

While preparing for our trip to Fargo and parts north to watch the Aggies take on the Bizzzzzon, I wanted to bring along some traditionals and other pieces done by the (real) Aggie Band-uh to get me in the spirit. I was going to rip them from the album (yes folks...LP) I have but someone has them up on a generic archive site. You can download them from the link below.

First Album Here

Here's from 1987 (the Non-Album). I swear I'm not the out of tune trumpet.

Non-Album

According to an athletics email, it looks like Saturday's game against Lehigh will have the drumline from the Sacramento Mandarins performing instead of any band made of UC Davis students.

That stinks. For us and the Mandarins - I am sure they're great folks, but I don't expect them to receive a warm welcome. I would bet most that come to Aggies games don't religiously follow Aggiesportstalk.com, and will be surprised and let down when the Band-uh is replaced with the Sacramento Mandarins.

This is unbelievable...I can't imagine a major Aggie sporting event without the Band-uh...incredibly sad for Aggie fans...