• Goags20172
    162
    This is a continuation of and response to 69Aggie's inquiry in the Big West Conference folder. A lot of this is stuff I've talked about before, but it continues to be relevant.

    There aren't really 1 or 2 main reasons for UCD regularly being at or near the bottom of the conference, but several factors, some of which I don't know about I'm, so broad strokes...

    1) Indifference of the university and Davis community to the sport. The university's contribution to this involves not fully promoting or funding it. The program has for a long time made do with what it had and make what it needed. That helped them be an above-average program in D-II, but it doesn't quite hack it in the Big West. To their credit what they have in facilities they made it happen despite the university's indifference. They raised the money and built the ballpark.

    2. Coaching. It's difficult to say how much of the struggles are really on the coaching staff. Yes, I've seen baserunning blunders, lapses in fundamentals, and questionable pitching changes, but those stick out because the failures are the ones you remember.

    It's easy to point the finger at Vaughn because he got the job without any head coaching experience, but Rex Peters had the same number of complete winning seasons (1) n D-I despite having an excellent record at Chapman before arriving in Davis. So how much of it is the coach, and how much is the players ? And Vaughn has got some excellent results out of soft'-throwing pitchers in his time. I don't doubt the players like him. The couple of times I've talked to him he's been helpful and kind. If you had a long-time head coach at the helm I think they only do marginally better..maybe 5-6 wins.

    3. Recruiting. This isn't to say that the players are of poor quality. It's more that from a player development standpoint UCD usually doesn't get many of the type of player who can hit the ground running in D-I and excel right away, like UCI and LBSU can get in bunches because of their track records. They are the typical UCD players who are perhaps a bit shorter, less athletic, or haven't built up their velocity (or control of their repertoire) or the upper body strength and bat speed to mash homeruns at Dobbins. They're often players that should redshirt except they're needed right away ready. By the time they're ready to really be huge contributors they're often upperclassmen and suddenly they're gone. UCD is in this seemingly endless cycle of re-building and replacing. There are rarely times when they have enough pitchers and position players firing on all cylinders, which is what they need to be a winning team. 2008 and 2015 were those two rare years.

    And unfortunately that is something any team that is almost all high school recruits faces. Stanford can get away with it because it's Stanford and it gets those elite players UCD can't. You could say the same thing about a few Big West teams.

    UCD is also not in the position as those elite teams to go out and recruit for the positions they need. It's not like when they need a center fieldee they are lucky enough to just go out and recruit a Garrett Kelly or a Cooper Morrison every year. More often than not they have to just recruit the best players they can and try to mold them into what they need like recruiting Alex Aguiar as a shortstop, moving him to third, transitioning him to the corner outfield, spots, and by the end he was in center field. In the 2021 season they had a shortage of center fielders (just Morrison and Smith, who was their primary third baseman), middle infielders and a surplus of catchers. There are a couple of positions I haven't the foggiest how they'll fill them in 2022. I'll talk about that team's prospects in a separate thread.

    Another complicating factor is that UCD doesn't cast a very wide recruiting net compared to other conference teams. I have the feeling that this is due to a more limited recruiting budget. Look around CA programs and you see teams with players from AZ, NV, WA, and OR to name a few. Most UCD players are from Northern and Central CA, and almost none are from out of stateThat's a more limited talent pool. Now UCSD poses a real threat as a D-I program. It offers a similar academic experience, only in the SD area. They are going to be fighting UCD for the same players and can offer that SD experience to boot.

    Now you might say this would be a good reason to recruit more JC players, but that's easier said than done for a few reasons

    1) Remember, JC ball is just one level above high school. Succeeding there is not necessarily an indicator of success at a higher level. Those players just could be really good at that level. A JC team's best pitcher may have a Division III caliber repertoire but lead the league in wins because they're crafty and they control their pitches better. It's similar to high school in that respect.

    2) There's a lot more competition for top JC players than you'd think. In general you'd think 4-year colleges would mostly raid their closest JC's but they cast an amazingly large net. In recent seasons the JC down the street has seen some of its sophomores transfer to the likes of Arizona, Texas Christian, Arkansas, and even Miami. And then you have the major leagues stealing top players.

    3) Even if the Razorbacks and Hurricanes don't swipe the talent the ones who can actually make it into UCD are further limited. Junior college baseball teams do feature a couple not-so-smarties who are there just to get noticed by pro scouts because it's easier to get in. There are others who have no intention of going to a four-year school-they just need an associate's to get into their chosen career fields

    So after UCD goes through the JC recruiting version of 1990's MTV dating show Singled Out (probably the last time Jenny McCarthy was relevant.) the Aggies are extremely lucky if they can find a good starting position player (such as Morrison) or pitcher (Nat Hamby). Mostly they just get bench players and relief pitchers, and two years is not enough time to let them develop to the point where they can assume greater roles. So mostly the JC yields supporting cast, not stars, for the Aggies.

    I would say that since 2005 UCD has been getting further and further behind in the arms race. Yes, they are recruiting better players each year, but their opponents have really stepped it up. If UCD gets a HS pitcher who can throw 90-92 with control, Long Beach will add 6 of them and half of those will throw 94-96 when the Beach faces UCD.

    And even with all of this taken into account UCD's seasons are still quite discouraging. Yes, baseball's main purpose is to enrich the academic and future professional lives so they become wildly successful and donate lots of money, but the Big West is the wrong league in which to be the just have fun team.
  • MTBAggie
    90
    Just in regards to Item 1, when I was at Davis in the late 90s, we had a great wrestling program with very little funding. Women's field hockey was pretty outstanding, also probably very little funding and support. Men's rugby and hockey were club sports and competed pretty solidly with top teams, if I remember correctly. I'm sure there are more examples. I know those were D2 days, but wrestling competed as a D1 program, and won an individual national championship in the early 2000s (Derek Moore).

    Baseball's lack of success can't be due to a lack of funding or interest. I'm curious if Davis is too tough of an academic school for kids who have aspirations to play in the minor leagues after college. You can probably talk a kid in to playing football with the understanding that they will never play again after college, but they'll walk out the door with a very respectable degree. If a JC kid wants to continue playing baseball after college, and the degree isn't the primary goal, why would you go to Davis? Out of curiosity, what percentage of Big West athletes play a sport after graduation? Is there a way to quantify which sports offer the most post-college opportunities?

    Anyway, just my 2 cents as someone who only watches MLB when the Giants are in the WS and only goes to 1 Giants game a year for my dad's birthday, and barely watches any of that game...
  • 72Aggie
    301
    "Could you folks please do me a favor ?

    "If I ever start posting about UCD baseball again could you remind me I asked you to tell me not to do that ? That would be greatly appreciated." - Goags20172

    I'm gonna have a t-shirt made.....

    Your postings like the opening one on this thread are why we talk you out of the trees at the end of each season. Keep up your insights. It's OK to take a 7th inning stretch once in a while.

    "Wait 'til next year!"
  • 69aggie
    370
    MTB. Your points are good, but they don’t address why Irvine is now pretty much dominating BWC sports and we are not doing as well; particularly BB. Irvine is just as hard to get into as Davis, yet they seem to do better. May just be the SoCal/Urban population advantage? I haven’t a clue. Maybe lights? Irvine does have lights, but Dobbins appears to be a better venue overall and has over twice the seated capacity. This might be 0ne of Rocko’s first challenges- upgrade Dobbins.
  • DrMike
    649
    I was having this conversation a couple weeks backs with people that have more clout than me. Recruiting seems to be a major issue. Unlike football, it’s hard to make inroads in SOCal amidst the vast talent pool when you are going up against mostly SOCal teams. We have to beat Sac Statd for the best of the valley, and start to grab the kids in the East Bay. I haven’t watched enough to comment on coaching. Talent wins more often than not
  • 69aggie
    370
    UC Santa Barbara has lights. Are we the only UC team in the BWC w/o lights?
  • 88Aggie
    22
    I have no idea how our recruiting and total budget compares to other BWC schools, but at some point the coach just has to do more with what he has. He needs to create an expectation of winning within the program and get recruits excited to come here as we plan on winning the conference. In a way that coach Hawkins has infused excitement into the football program. We might just need to try a new coach. Someone new might have new energy and make something happen. If that didn't work, it can't get much worse.
  • movielover
    484
    UCSB, LBSU, Irvine, UCR, St. Mary's, USF, Santa Clara, etc., don't have football, so what is the pecking order ... MBB, WBB, and then baseball? Vastly more pro opportunity in baseball (minors), and maybe out of state recruiting needed w changing SoCal demographics.
  • fugawe09
    171
    I know little about baseball or which players are relevant, but looking through the rosters it looks like baseball at both schools is kind of a regional recruiter, most of Irvine's players come from LA, San Diego, and Orange Counties. Most of ours come from Sac valley or Bay Area. Is baseball just objectively better or more popular among Southern California high schools? Or is there something different about baseball culture in Northern California that makes the students less attractive to universities? To some degree, success attracts success but is any school in the Big West really a feeder to a pro career? I thought pro ball mostly plucked the guys with legitimate potential right out of high school. Remembering way back to high school for me, both school and club baseball were always in trouble for indiscretions with alcohol, tobacco, or young ladies. I recall on one occasion they locked the coach in a portolet, tipped it over, and left him. Needless to say, not college-bound men. No idea if that culture was unique to my high school or more widespread.
  • 69aggie
    370
    Simple. Population: SoCal has 2/3’s of the population of California. Many, many more players available in SoCal. So, why can’t we just recruit down there? It takes time, money and effort. That last thing: “E” for effort is pretty much all on the coaching staff. Just don’t know if they are dong a good job or not. Rocko has a big job in front of him with Aggie BB.
  • 72Aggie
    301
    I remember hearing Sochor say that he was concerned about reports that UCSB might try to move its then D-III football program to D-II. At that time UCD was the only choice for D-II athletes who wanted to go to a UC and wanted to play football. As Socher said, "How am I going to get them to come to Davis after they've visited Santa Barbara?"

    Personally I like Davis, but for a whole lot of people if you want to play sports at the Big West level, and go to a UC, do you go to Davis? Or to Santa Barbara, Irvine, Riverside and now San Diego? The weather? Proximity to family if you're from SoCal? Chance to play mid-week games at USC, UCLA, SDSU? I assume more exposure to MLB scouts? Disneyland? Tough sell.
  • movielover
    484
    Did Sochor as HC ever go on the road to recruit, including SoCal? It seems Rolf & O'Brien kind of fell into our laps.
  • 72Aggie
    301
    Don't know a darn thing about the recruiting practices. O'Brien started at that school across the Causeway. Reportedly he was not happy there because he had this idea that he wanted to throw the ball. I always heard the Benirschke picked UC Davis because the coaches agreed he could play both soccer and football. There are stories of him playing soccer in the afternoon and being raced to an evening football game. Not sure if it is true, but I also heard that he would sometimes travel via the team physician's airplane, and flew over the field at Hayward near the end of the Miracle game, but arrived too late to play. I cannot vouch for that story, but it sounds good.
  • 69aggie
    370
    Well, maybe without the lights it looks like we don’t even care about BB. It looks like SB recruits well in the South, but then, its no secret that Davis is much safer than many/most SoCal towns and their moms and dads know this. Did I once say how many Davis grads come back to town to take their kids on the downtown trick-or-treat night. I know because could not a room in Davis on Halloween a few years ago. “Busiest night of the year” desk clerk told me. Says a lot.
  • Goags20172
    162
    Funding is a big deal. It affects the quality of players they can recruit.

    You probably remember the basketball teams of that era too. The Aggies didn't always have an athletic and physical advantage. They won with smarts and better coaching. Well, in D-I baseball the players are smarter (at baseball) and more physical, even Sac State. You should see a Causeway Classic baseball match-up. You'd swear the guys in green were representing the UC., making all the plays. Actually that probably wouldn't be that fun. Forget I said that.

    But games at Dobbins are just home games basically for the visiting team :(
  • Goags20172
    162
    I'm not sure if Northridge has lights yet. Bakersfield has them, and I think UCSD does too (although both ballparks have considerably smaller capacity, and aren't as nice. ) Triton Ballpark seems kind of minimal, but I believe it was built when the team was Division III so there was no need to have a big facility. I know CSUN got a big donation that was supposed to pay for it.

    I know of 3 other Division I teams that don't have lights and they're all in the West Coast Conference-St. Mary's, Pepperdine and San Francisco. San Francisco probably won't ever get them because Benedetti Diamond is in the middle of a wealthy neighborhhood where they don't want to disturb the neighbors at night.

    St. Mary's is working just to even get permanent seating right now. They have just old creaky bleachers, especially on the visiting side. Guisto Field doesn't have restrooms either. You have to go to the new fitness center next door and freak out the students waiting to go exercise with your 'ancient-ness". I joke though; the people were all very pleasant.

    I thought I read Pepperdine doesn't plan to get them. And that makes sense, it would ruin the view to play in the dark.

    San Jose State doesn't really have its own regular ballpark. They play their games in city-owned Excite Ballpark, where they are basically squatters. I got a very good look at the entire ballpark and there are no indications that SJSU ever plays there. They have Blethen Field across the street, but apparently it's only suitable to serve as a practice facility. So technically they don't have lights because they don't have their own ballpark.

    By that token the Long Beach State Gender-ambivalent Sharks don't have lights either. Blair Field is also a city-owned park, and doesn't belong to LBSU.. If LBSU has lights because they play at Blair Field then the Aggies have lights every time they play Fullerton at Raley Field in 2005.
  • Goags20172
    162
    In UCI baseball's case I would say their current recruiting success is largely due to sustained winning, even if they don't finish first. You have to recruit the best players to win, but you have to win to recruit the best players. I remember even in 2002 when they reinstated their program UCI was pretty good. They were able to recruit a lot of players who wanted to be pioneers in Anteater baseball history. Maybe UCD should get rid of its program for 20 years and bring it back ? LOL.
  • Goags20172
    162
    I see the merit of having lights for the purpose of the student-athletes having more flexibility with practice times and missing fewer classes. Aside from that I don't see it doing much to boost attendance, especially since night games conflict with study time. I seriously doubt the townies in Davis will ever care about UCD baseball.
  • Goags20172
    162
    I recall in a press release a couple years ago Vaughn was excited they recruited a player from San Diego because they don't often get players from there. I think that player was Cade Wesolowsky, who never played a single game at UCD.
  • movielover
    484
    I belief Rolf chose Davis strictly for academics with no intention to play football. Our football staff was tipped off bc Pac 8 (?) coaches figured we offered Rolf illegal money. We had to go to the dorm directory to contact Rolf in the dorms!

    Most everything else you said rings true.
  • 72Aggie
    301
    You're probably correct on the sequencing. I do recall stories that the big schools that wanted him for football balked at the idea of playing soccer too, and Rolf apparently loved soccer. Again digging into the fading recesses of my memory, didn't he do "color" commentating for professional soccer, perhaps the San Diego franchise in whatever soccer league was around at the time? (Not to be confused with his run as an emcee on "Wheel of Fortune.")
  • 72Aggie
    301
    Most everything else you said rings true.movielover

    Tell my wife and kids.
  • movielover
    484
    70% is 100% correct. :cool:
  • 69aggie
    370
    20172. How will we ever know until we try it? Not a lot to do around Davis at night that I remember and now no Grad. So $200,000. For lights seems like no big deal. UC Davis is the second largest employer in the entire Sacto region last I saw. UC Davis Health is a very Big factor in UC Davis Athletics now and it is growing very fast. How about a challenge campaign for THE LIGHTS? I would certainly donate, except no body has asked.
  • movielover
    484
    Haven't they wanted to raise money for lights for 10-15 years? :roll: Do they sell beer at Dobbins now?
  • Goags20172
    162
    I do not know if they will continue it post-pandemic but I remember in 2019 at least there was a Woodstock's pizza cart on weekends that sold beer. This year the concession stand was closed, although I seem to recall a food truck parked outside 1 game.
  • 69aggie
    370
    Movie, I think you might be right. I recall someone saying the electrical conduits were put in place as constructed and just waiting for lights. That was 15-20 years ago. But, no. There Never was a big campaign to install lights. Then it was around $200,000. Now probably 2x that. But, still if the Administration really wanted it, it is a small piece of change for them.
    What is the status on the present head BB coach’s contract?
    And no. Beer will not help this program. I think football has beer, but you have to go out of the stadium to get it and drink it. God forbid beer in the hands of Aggie fans in the stadium. Very dangerous!
  • movielover
    484
    Beer is available at UC Davis Health Stadium at the regular concessions and the pizza vendor.

    Warzecka laid out some information and need as before we left... Terry Tumey spent 3 years putting together plans and job shopping ... Teresa Gould spent over a year redoing the previous findings into a SWOT analysis ... I guess they got funds for softball, and a big field hockey donation dropped in their lap.

    The new batting cages were finally built?
  • Goags20172
    162
    I remember them saying he got a five-year contract extension after his last full winning season (2015). Since that would have only taken him through the 2020 season he must have already been under contract for 2016 at least. As a result he may come up for renewal this year, if we assume that 2016 was the last season of his previous deal.
  • Goags20172
    162
    Actually that was wrong. It was four years after the 2017 season

    https://ucdavisaggies.com/news/2017/12/14/Matt_Vaughn_Signs_Four_Year_Extension
  • 69aggie
    370
    All could be well soon. We will hire for fund raising the Fresno wrestling coach who just got booted for, among other things, allowed a stripper into a party for recruits, loaned money to a player for “parking tickets” and a bunch more inane infractions. Now, we know Fresno State is not the role model for D1 sports or for any aspect of college sports, but this seems excessive for the NCAA to come down so hard on poor Fresno State just for a stripper party? At least it was a safe party, right? Last I went to a game there the guys in front of me had just been released from prison. We got the big biker glare when they found out we were not Bulldog fans. Not a fun experience. But, hey, a few strippers, a few donors, and we get the lights, right? Rocko, get creative! But, we have to hire local. Can we get local strippers in Davis? Doubtful. I have to go to Home Depot tomorrow in Santa Rosa and the Hooters is right next door. I will ask if they travel. . . Meanwhile Fresno dropped more sports, Field Hockey, Men’s Tennis and Lacrosse. Thank God for Stanford!
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to Aggie Sports Talk!

AggieSportsTalk.com, the pulse of Aggie athletics. The home of Aggie Pride. Create an account to contribute to the conversation!