OK. BUT HOW WOULD SHE KNOW? SHES NEVER BEEN A WOMAN ATHLETE IN HER LIFE. BEFORE THERE WAS THIS WHOLE PUBLIC TRANS THING (WHICH IS GOOD) THERE WERE WOMAN ATHLETES WHO LOOKED DECIDEDLY MORE MANLY THAN OTHERS AND WHO DID NOT HAVE TRANS SURGERIES. THEY PARTICIPATED IN ALL WOMANS SPORTS. SOME HAD NATURALLY HIGH TESTOSTERONE SOME DID NOT. LOOK AT THE SOUTH AFRICAN WOMAN SPRINTER (DKLN) WHO IS A GREAT ATHLETE, BUT SHE HAS BEEN SELECTIVELY DISQUALIFIED EVEN THO SHE HAS NEVER HAS TRANS SURGERY JUST BECAUSE OF HIGH T WHICH SHE WAS BORN WITH! CAITLYN, GIVE US A BREAK. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE GOVERNOR OR JUST GET PUBLICITY??

Because men are, generally speaking, biologically stronger than women. Substantially in many cases.

This is a really tough issue. The sensible and sensitive things to do are rarely the same.

I think that the transgender female student-athletes need to be allowed to play. If you don't you're sending the message that transgender women aren't really women, which is something people have been working really hard to rectify.

Really I think Caitlyn Jenner has been watching too much South Park for her own good. Probably saw that episode where Macho Man Randy Savage goes by Heather and beats Vice Principal Strong Woman in every event of an athletic competition. For anyone who doesn't watch the show (probably all the other regulars and most of the lurkers) Caitlyn Jenner is a recurring character as vp to President Garrison (who is pretty transparently representing Donald Trump). On the show she mainly just says un-ladylike things and runs people over with her car.

Now South Park is a ridiculous show that is good for some shock laughs if you have thick enough skin to get past the many offensive things. It's meant to be ridiculous and sarcastic, but when life starts to imitate the show you know you're in trouble.

Jenner is exhibiting some gender-based biases and transphobia of her own. Who says all transgender female students are taller and stronger than their cisgender counterparts ? I think she's parroting the fictional Randy Savage joke. And then there are the concepts of gender and body dysphoria (sp ?). You can't possibly know how much of a role that plays in someone's decision to make the transition. Aren't you just as likely to see shorter and less muscular males decide to be female ? Do they have a competitive advantage in female sports ?

This whole thing seems like it is seeking a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

This new issue / fad can have some very serious consequences if we continue to glamorize it.

Twenty years ago I watched a program on a man who had a complete sex change, then underwent counseling, figured out he had some form of gender dysphoria, and had a sex change operation to go back. I believe medical professionals say the brain isn't fully developed until 25.

Washington Post featured a transgendered athlete who broke nine world weightlifting records at one meet, at 45.

"“What a day, 9 for 9!” she [Mary Gregory] posted. “Masters world squat record, open world bench record, masters world dl record, and masters world total record! Still processing …”

"“She put down female. Clearly, she’s not a female,” said Paul Bossi, 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation’s president. “Not biologically anyways...."

"Sharron Davies, a retired Olympic swimmer from England, said that “woman with female biology cannot compete” against a “male body with male physiology.”

“Socially I’m for everyone living the way they wish, safely, not harming others but sport is ALL about biology not ideology,” she tweeted...."

"In explaining its decision earlier this year, the [International Olympic Committee] organization said, “Men naturally have a larger bone structure, higher bone density, stronger connective tissue and higher muscle density than women. These traits, even with reduced levels of testosterone, do not go away. While [male-to-female] may be weaker and less [muscular] than they once were, the biological benefits given them at birth still remain over that of a female.” "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/

So one middle-aged non-athlete male transitioned, and broke 9 world records - at 45, after a year or two?

I'm worried about the confused children who may eventually figure things out, whatever that is, but being pumped full of drugs at 15, or 16, or having your schmedrick cut off when your brain isn't fully developed, would be so tragic.

Then to entice them with fame and potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in college scholarships? Not to mention adults with their own agendas. We should have common sense along with compassion.

There are probably some policies that should be flushed out around this but I think the sudden rush of politicians on both sides of aisle to entrench without thoughtful research and discussion is a disservice to everyone. By and large this seems to me the political talking heads have solutions in search of a problem. The number of transgender high schoolers is tiny, and an even smaller number are athletes, let alone serious contenders. Are there anecdotal examples? Sure, but some of the states and schools that have taken action haven't had a single one. And it seems extremely unlikely that huge hulking dudes are going to "pretend" to be trans to improve their stats or scam their way into ogling the girls locker room. It's a different issue when you get to determining fairness of the Olympic 100m dash and nearly all of the female contenders have atypical genetic and hormonal situations going on.

Physiological gender differences are real and deserve to be considered by a consistent policy. If for a moment, we consider gender dysphoria a disability (and yes, I know both trans and disability activists will object, but stick with me for a second), those students would be entitled to the least restrictive reasonable accommodation that affords them access. Put another way, suppose there was an autistic student with memory skills far beyond what most others are capable of. Should he be disqualified from the state spelling bee or made to participate in a different category on the basis that his disability provides an unfair advantage? Most people would probably say let him compete, because it's not his fault nobody really cares about spelling bees. By definition school sports should also be relatively low stakes because their stated goals are physical fitness, personal development, and fun. And in that paradigm, most people would probably err on the side of compassion because the results won't matter much in 20 years. Capri Sun pouches and orange slices for everybody. I think the problem has become that school sports either do (or are perceived) to have implications for access to elite colleges, big money scholarships, and maybe even future careers. All the sudden compassion goes out the window when the stakes are real money. What an ugly beast we've created.

OK. I am not an Irish historian, but I will give you this very brief Irish history lesson. There was long ago a great warrior Queen of Connacht. Her name was Queen Mauve. She was very beautiful and strong. 6+ feet tall. She needed six husbands to do what she required. If they did not, God help them. She led the Legendary Irish cattle raid on an enemy King in Ulster, The Great Cooly Cattle Raid on Ulster, and she stole the prized bull, and, then, get this: when she negotiated for buying cattle, she would dicker with the guys, and she would then say this: “this is my final offer. If accepted you may have my loins as well.” And she got the bull. So, this is my kind of Queen. Was she a Trans? Was she a “Lesbo”. Did she have too much T? Google her. A great picture of her there. She is my Irish heroine and I am going go to Ireland (god help us) to see her grave this Fall. This trans thing is s very complex issue for us today. But for me, I just love them all! “Let the games begin!

Did you read your own article? She failed the drug test and was stripped of all 9 medals. I'm not saying I have any answers, but testosterone levels are a pretty basic test for doping in any sport, male or female.

"The positive feelings would be short-lived. News of the transgender lifter who broke female records began circulating, and just a couple of days later, Gregory was stripped of her titles and barred from competing as a woman."

"He said Gregory never volunteered that she was transgender and event organizers didn’t confirm she’d competed in the wrong category until a post-match drug test was administered."

ABC News: Transgender teens outrun track and field competitors but critics close behind

"Some parents within Connecticut's high school track and field circle expressed outraged when two transgender students took home top prizes at the state championships for girls.

"Transgender high school sophomores Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood came in first and second place, respectively, in the 100-meter race at the State Open Finals June 4, angering some parents who complained they had a competitive advantage over non-transgender students.

"Miller, who also won the top prize for the 200-meter race representing Bulkeley High School in Hartford, and Yearwood were born male, but they now identify as females."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-teens-outrun-track-field-competitors-critics-close/story?id=55856294

Sophomores, 1st & 2nd at the state meet. In one photo the young transgendered girl appears at least 6" taller, broader shoulders & chest, etc.

When did this 'gender' issue take off 3, 5 years ago?

When did this 'gender' issue take off 3, 5 years ago?

Basic timeline—

2011- NCAA issues guidelines. Around this time places like UCD start installing “all gender” signage on single restrooms. Doesn’t get much controversy at the time.
2014- Pediatric medical advice evolves from wait-and-see to affirmative. A talking point on mommy blogs and Glenn Beck, but not much else.
2016- NC bathroom bill followed by retaliatory guidance from Dept of Ed making it a title IX issue. Explodes in a tinderbox election year.
2018- bathroom bill unwinds and focus shifts to women’s sports under title IX. Probably a confluence of kids under 2014 medical guidance hitting varsity sports, the involvement of NCAA in overturning the law, and an interesting alliance between proponents and certain radical feminist groups.
2020- state legislatures start proposing bills. Explodes in another tinderbox election year.

Can you please explain this one?

"Pediatric medical advice"

I'm referring to the stated opinion of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which I think is the industry group most practicing pediatricians align their treatments with. They categorized treatments as corrective, wait-and-see, or affirmative and moved their recommendations to the latter based on research that it was the better of the three options to reduce self-harm. I'm not qualified to say if this is good or bad medicine, my point is I think a lot of providers started moving that direction around that time. As with any developing science, the view is not universal. The American College of Pediatricians holds an opposing opinion, though they have been labelled as a hate group by some and have far fewer member physicians.

Every woman i have asked the question, “do you have issue with a transgender person sharing the same gym group shower with the ladies?” has answered absolutely yes. They don’t want it. If i understand the definitions properly, transgender is a person that identifies with the opposite sex than how they are anatomically. Trans sexual is a person who has been transformed to look like that opposite sex surgically and pharmacologically. The whole thing sounds like a wild coed hot tube party

I think it might help to keep this “problem” in perspective if we take note of the numbers we are dealing with. According to the UCLA Law School Williams Institute transgender individuals comprise 0.6% of the US population or 1.3 million people. Since a sizable number of transgender people will identify as “male” this percentage is much lower for our “girls gym problem.” So the chances of a woman in Davis having to “gym shower” with a transgender female is about as likely as an asteroid hitting the earth. Has it happened? Yes. Is it likely? Not at all. Is this an issue looking to try and be a “problem” when it is not? Has anyone asked if a transgender female who identifies as a “male” would create a “problem” in the boys gym shower? I think we should look to our military for guidance. Our generals have NO Problem with transgenders in the United States military. Problem solved!

Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds

- Study raises questions on fairness of IOC guidelines
- Running times quicker even after testosterone reduction

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Trans woman sets cycling world record, sparking huge debate about gender in sport

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/trans-woman-sets-cycling-world-record-sparking-huge-debate-about-gender-in-sport/

Transgender athletes controversy swirls after Laurel Hubbard wins gold at Pacific Games

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-30/transgender-athletes-in-the-pacific-under-fire/11360854

Male rapper [& recreational lifter] identifying as female, declares he broke female deadlift record

https://www.wqad.com/article/news/local/drone/8-in-the-air/male-rapper-identifying-as-female-informally-breaks-female-dead-lift-record-to-prove-a-point/526-4e1a441e-42e4-417b-9fca-e1cb6a3574f3

Interesting that not one trans man (female to male) appears to have broken records or won a state or Olympic category.

And shocking to me that the two 15 year old Connecticut track athletes are on hormone therapy to transition, when they aren't even fully developed physically, mentally, or emotionally.

Being 'trans' is edgy now, cool for some.

I don't think you meant it as such, but "trans sexual" has come to be considered pejorative term by many and I wouldn't want you to unknowingly step on that land mine. "Transgender" broadly applies to anyone who's gender identity does not match what the doctor put on their birth certificate regardless of surgical status. You might also hear related terms "nonbinary" (someone who identifies as something other than male or female) or "gender fluid" (someone who's identity isn't consistent - some days they identify as male, others as female).

I get what your friends are saying - locker rooms are kind of a vulnerable environment and we all want perhaps a little more dignity and privacy than they sometimes afford. Design guidelines for high schools call for the traditional group showers to be changed to stalls and and dressing cubicles to be added for anyone who prefers to use one. From what I understand, this is a bigger deal to today's parents than it is for today's teenagers. Bad behavior can come from anyone... a couple years ago I was in a gym brushing my teeth and all the sudden there's a naked dude at the next sink with one leg on the counter, manscaping his crack, staring me in the mirror with his browneye. Those weren't whiskers left in the sink. Ten trans people in that locker room would have made me less uncomfortable than this guy.

Thanks for clarifying the definitions. I’m sure there are plenty of other landmines that I step on.
My old gym, which is now a covid casualty, had a large group shower and hot tubs in both locker rooms. Swim suits were not worn. I was a member since 1980. My biggest beef with their locker room policies was allowing fathers to bring their daughters into the men’s side up to 5 years old, where guys were changing. Many would bring them into the hot tub. Most of us would clear out. Sorry for deviating from the main subject

So shifting the subject ever so slightly, I would add that the whole subject of showers or the importance of showers and related privacy is rapidly changing since the pandemic. Daily showers are, says a NYT article today, unhealthy, bad for the environment, wasteful of water and are pretty much unnecessary. So the less showers, the less the potential for exposure to others period, whether it be from transgender people or anyone else for that matter. Funny how some “problems” find a way of solving themselves. The shower at my now open gym: closed permanently. Read the article. Informative and funny.

I hope you reported that guy. Huge hygeine issue + that should concern them if the gesture itself doesn't.

I always hated that. What's to stop the fathers of these children from complaining to the police that you exposed yourself to their daughters if you accidentally exposed something on the way oug of the shower and didn't know they were there ? If it goes to court probably gets thrown out on the father's negligence but still a waste of time and money. Gyms should have a mandatory free daycare policy for locker room time-free if it's under an hour. No children allowed in there. Besides, the sight of all those hairy out of shape men could scar them for life. If it were even possible for one simple thing to flip a switch and turn a female lesbian that would be it.

That's fine for all the non-essential workers who have oh so grueling zoom meetings in their homes. Those of us who have to be around others and have to smell them need to shower regularly, maybe skip one on the weekend or a couple if on vacation.

These types who harp about the environment are such huge hypocrites . You know what's bad for the environment ? People. People (including myself) are all basically parasites and I'm at peace with the fact that I'm basically the equivalent of a mosquito on this planet. Even the crunchiest of vegans who wears hemp clothing and shoes and rides a scooter powered exclusively by their own farts is a parasite. Want to save the Earth ? Don't have children, I say. Seriously. All that food not eaten, all those car trips not taken. The pandemic has done a better job of protecting the environment than all the environmentalists put together.

Oh, and bringing this back to topic. No children=no future student athletes to worry about. Problem solved.

And yes I did enjoy "The Last Man on Earth". Don't know why Will Forte's characterhad to do his business in his pool instead of anywhere else Even with all people gone the outside and TP still exist..duh. That was so funny how a volleyball was his wingman when he went to go ask a store mannequin out.

To address the thread title, Caitlyn Jenner is an effing moron and nobody should listen to her opinions on just about anything.

This is an issue that the right wing has basically made up and then blown way out of proportion. If some 15 year old boy really wants to transition to be a girl so he can win a state track meet, then so be it. I mean, you get nothing from that other than a headline in a newspaper and then people forget you. Then guess what, you’re still a girl afterwards and you have to deal with all the bigoted morons who will hate you just because you’re trans. Because it’s not like you can just declare yourself a girl and start competing against girls immediately. I just don’t see the upside that would make someone transition to being a girl just for the sake of competing in sports.

If I heard a woman say they are uncomfortable sharing a locker room with a man who transitioned to a woman, I’d ask them if they are uncomfortable sharing a locker room with a lesbian. If they don’t care about the lesbian I’d ask why?

I’d also recommend that she just doesn’t shower in a public shower anymore if it bothers her that much.

Caitlyn Jenner was a two time Olympic athlete and won the gold metal, and a 'trans advocate'. Today many young people consider 'trans' issues edgy and cool, like bisexuality was 20 years ago.

Do you not believe the brain is still developing until 23 or 25? If a 30 year old wants to change genders, ok. But why would anyone advocate or support a teenager - still going through puberty - having reassignment surgery? (I believe a top Biden official, a trans woman herself, supports children having reassignment *without* their parents approval???)

Lesbians and trans women are different. Biology 1. Trans women have male anatomy, brains, size, etc. Not to mention the psychopaths and sociopaths who will claim to be trans to get into the girls locker room.

Jenner is a joke candidate for governor. I don't think even reasonable conservatives want the Kardashian organization running the state. While true that Jenner helped make trans issues mainstream, the LGBT community is not monolithically a fan of her takes, so we shouldn't give her the power of spokesperson, just like Jesse Jackson shouldn't be taken to speak for all Black people. I find Gen Z as annoying as anyone else, and I think you touch on this cultural phenomenon where it has become cool to overstate one's "harm and trauma" because of the narrative where you're either oppressed or an oppressor and nobody wants to be seen as the latter. That said, I don't think it's a thing that people are faking being trans or gay to be cool. In fact I had a coworker once respond to that line of questioning with "Wait, do you think I chose to ruin my life?"

You're thinking of Dr. Rachel Levine and an exchange with Rand Paul at confirmation hearings. Paul went down this line of questioning, Levine declined to engage, and Newsmax filled in the silence. I don't know Dr. Levine's personal opinion, but today's general medical advice in younger children is to not necessarily "correct" gendered behaviors, that is if a girl wants to play with trucks or a boy with dolls, whatever. In fact many children outgrow this at puberty. But some don't, so for adolescents, the medical advice can include fully reversible puberty blockers to buy time to figure things out or partially reversible hormone therapy. Typically, surgery would only be available to 18+ who have lived as that gender for at least a year under a doctor's care. An open debate not limited to LGBT issues is how much autonomy and privacy teens should have over the own healthcare. As with anything, there are wackadoo parents on both ends of the spectrum that take things to unhealthy extremes.

An interesting thing I've learned from trans acquaintances - the community is kind of split. Many, maybe even most, trans people want to simply pass a regular man or woman and go about their lives without, you know, being murdered. Most of these are quiet about it and don't want to be noticed so probably wouldn't dance their bait and tackle around a gym shower. On the flip, there are people who never want to be known as a woman, they want to be known as a trans-woman, loud and proud, which I suppose is their right. Just know that these groups often resent each other and when an activist makes a huge unprovoked scene, there is a big part of the community silently cringing and hoping you don't hold it against them, so maybe it's worth offering them that respect.

As for the sociopaths and psychopaths, they don't need to fake being trans to get into a bathroom or locker room. Predators, voyeurs, and exhibitionists have yet to be stopped by signage and social norms.

Rational points. However, you wrote "I don't think it's a thing that people are faking being trans or gay to be cool." Not faking. Confused, awkward, immature, and then becoming 'trans' gives them an identity, purpose, cause, & support.

You wrote "In fact many children outgrow this at puberty." You softly pointed out a significant issue which the trans community seems to bury.

KQED: "The phenomenon of transgender children "growing out of" their transgender identity by the time they are adolescents or adults is called “desistance” by gender researchers.

"For decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority -- anywhere from 65 to 94 percent -- eventually ceased to identify as transgender. ...

"In Amsterdam, clinicians at the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria are much more cautious about recommending social transitions because of the statistics on desistance."

https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth

For the record, I know a group that is primarily lesbian women. The most level headed person there is a trans man. Really a nice man. But even his lesbian partner admits that "Fred", in his 40s, was indecisive about the transition. Has a career, educated, in a LTR, and confused.

I don’t need to ask “why.” Their opinion is good enough for me.

But the why is a very important part of the equation here when we’re talking about serious topics like this. Because if they’re just a bigoted hateful person who thinks being trans is made up or a fad or not real (to be clear, I’m not saying any of the women you’ve talked to are this way because I don’t know them) then their opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

They’re not.

Ok

The article mentions some reasons for desistence in young children might be because at a young age they don't have the language skills to accurately define their feelings or that over the course of a longitudinal study, the definitions had changed. So basically misdiagnosing any gender non-conformance as trans might mean the adults are more confused than the kids. Indeed I do think there are cases of parents of children with abnormal behavior being quick to seek diagnoses so that they can join a community that normalizes that behavior and thus reassures them that they aren't bad parents. I think though in the context of the original discussion, a 16 year old would be less confused or influenced by adult projections than a 4 year old. Notwithstanding the adult gyms we go to, my understanding is that high schools have found ways to mitigate the locker room and restroom concerns and the debate is now centered on the reality that someone with XY chromosomes but doesn't identify that way likely still has physiological advantages in a group where everyone else has XX chromosomes. In these rare cases, the ultimate question is do we favor the mental health and development of the individual or the objective fairness of the competition class? If the stakes were low like a city rec league, I think this is a non-issue. But as long as we are going to base what university you go to and how much it's going to cost on your performance in an 11th grade squash or fencing tournament, I think we are going to find people unwilling to budge.